The Arbiters Of Free Speech

BbO2_l7CYAAiArR.jpg largePeople steal or misattribute good lines to people they like or want to lionise, it happens.

“I disagree with what you say sir, but I will defend to the death your right to say it” has been attributed to many people, but is most commonly thought to have been said by Voltaire.

It was probably however by his biographer, who was describing what Voltaire’s point was, though some have tried to steal it to say it was something by one of the people who made the Constitution of the USA.

Whoever said it, it is a good and important concept. We can argue all day about the right to shout “fire” in a crowded theatre and so on, but whichever side of that argument you fall on, the problem comes in when you start to think about who should be the arbiters of what is and isn’t fair play.

And again, wherever you stand on the argument, the arbiters sure as fuck shouldn’t be UEFA.

Obviously as a Celtic supporter I’ve got a bone to pick with UEFA with all this and that is why it was nice to see Greenpeace pissing them off (again) by annoying one of their big sponsors.

This is just a little taster of a larger article I’d like to write on this topic and the teaser question is simply this…

You may or may not agree that there should be limits to free speech. People tend to move along a spectrum on that one.

Whatever your opinion, what the fuck have UEFA (or FIFA or the IOC for that matter) got to do with deciding for anyone what they can and can’t say?

Sport & Politics DO Mix

Independence CelticContrary to the cliché, sport and politics DO actually mix. Whether you think that is a good thing or not is where the debate comes in.

Most people seem to like politics at football (or sport in general) as long as it is politics they agree with.

In order to see where you stand on the political issues you could compare your reactions to what Tommy Smith and John Carlos did at the Mexico Olympics or Emily Davidson becoming a martyr for the suffragette movement to some of the right-wing banners you see, for example, amongst the Serbian fans.

I was happy last night because there were two little political bits that I noticed that were both up my political street. At the Celtic V Barcelona match I was happy to see this banner in amongst the support…

But I’d have to say that yesterday the politics in football trophy goes to Greenpeace for their amazing protest which involved abseiling off the stadium roof and unfurling a huge banner at the Basel V Schalke match.

Here are a couple of videos of the event. I also notice that UEFA are blocking some of them…


Milan & Marching On!

I had a good time last night appearing on the ETims podcast. For those readers that are Celtic supporters it should be up your street.


We talked about the football obviously, towards the end though, we moved on to issues surrounding the Independence referendum and how it stands with a year to go.

You can get the podcast here.

The Scottish Independence Podcast 28 – Paul Larkin

The-Last-Pearl-DiverFor the 28th episode of The Scottish Independence Podcast I spoke with Paul Larkin.

Paul is a writer who has made the Amazon bestseller list and is very well-known amongst those of us who support Celtic and is one of the mainstays of Hail Hail media, the Celtic fans very own channel.

For many people however, he’ll be something new on the menu.

We had a very open conversation indeed. It took in the problems that many of the Celtic support have with the SNP, the kinds of conversation Paul is having with the supporters when he speaks to them, positive/negative campaigning and the detachment between people and politicians up and down the UK.

We also got on to his time in New York and what people think about Scotland there and why there has historically been a negative attitude from some Celtic supporters toward the Scottish national team.

Finally, we had a word about Paul’s upcoming book, in which he promises there will be some serious revelations about who pulls what strings in Scotland.

Hope you enjoy…

As usual, this is the direct download link (right click and save as)

You can listen to the show online at its web page

Or you can subscribe with itunes


Michael Greenwell

Time For A Review

k1Recently the Scottish Government have suggested they aren’t particularly interested in speeding up a review of the Offensive Behaviour Bill, but I think some of the following information might make people want to see a review before 2015, when the review is due to come up.

These statistics were obtained from the Scottish Government by Siobhan McMahon MSP and were stated in an interview by  Jeanette Findlay from the Celtic Trust and Fans Against Criminilisation. You can find the original recording here, starting from about 66 minutes.

The first question put was…

“What projects have been funded to tackle sectarianism in each of the last two years?”

This was asked to get an idea of what educational projects were underway. The answer gave some rather surprising facts about where the money was going.

In short, according to Findlay and McMahon (via ScotGov)…

  • A large amount of the funding for anti-sectarianism educational projects, in fact more than half of it, went to the FOCUS (Football Coordination Unit for Scotland) group of the police.
  • In 2011-12 this group received 75% of the funding
  • In 2012-13 they received 32% of the funding
  • They received 1.82 million in total
  • This unit consists of no more than 10 people

Furthermore, this group are there to police an act which at no point mentions sectarianism, but rather mentions “Offensive Behaviour”.

Findlay went on to say…

“One of the things that FAC (Fans Against Criminilisation) has always said is “in whose interest is this?”. The only people in whose interest this act now remains is the police service of Scotland because this is funding which is separate from their core budget. They have a core budget which is getting squeezed so  they need to find other nice tempting budgets that they can get into, and they seem to be swallowing up the bulk of this budget.

A second question was put…

“How many people have been convicted under the Offensive Behaviour Act?”

  • 64 people were prosecuted and of those, 54 were convicted  under the part of the act which is about offensive behaviour at football between 1st March 2012 and 31st December 2012
  • Before taking into account the costs of the lawyers, the court system etc, that works out as £33,703 per conviction.
  • There were 4 people prosecuted under the part of the act which is about threatening communications and one person was convicted under that.
  • Of Celtic supporters, who have been involved in the major protests against the bill and rightly or wrongly feel somewhat more persecuted by it, no one who has pleaded “not guilty” (and therefore gone to trial) has actually been convicted.

BHKhiunCMAIqRK9.jpg largeFindlay also said that another question will be asked about whether these people could have been convicted under existing section 74 offences (such as Breach of the peace, religious aggravation).


  • If you look at 2011-12 the last full year of Section 74 stats, only 8% of all religious aggravated offences took place at football grounds.
  • Therefore, only 8% of offences but then 75% and then 32% of the budgets for anti-sectarian projects are directed towards the policing of football. That makes 50% of the budget for 8% of the offences.
  • More than 10,000 letters have been sent to MSPs raising concerns about the bill. That was in turn discussed in the Justice Committee meeting of the Parliament of the 23rd April.

It’s time to bring forward the review of this.

Finally, she suggested people should be putting in Freedom of Information Requests.



My podcasting colleague has informed me that, contrary to the impression I got from a recent interview on the subject of bringing forward the review, the law cannot be reviewed formally at any given time, although an informal review can obviously be done at any time.

Further, the requirement to report is built into the act itself and the law would need to be amended to speed up any review.

That said, given the car crash nature of the law, they should just get on with it.

Corteo Report

This is reproduced here by kind permission of Krys Kujawa. It is an eyewitness report of the events of Saturday 16th March when the police kettled a group of peaceful football supporters in Glasgow. It originally appeared here.

Corteo Report

I thought I’d share with you the report I sent on to Fans Against Criminalisation on Friday. It took me all week to put it together, but I felt it was worthwhile doing. If anyone has any complaints, please send them on to fansagainstcriminalisation@gmail.com as I have done.

Alternatively, FAC are meeting in the Ward Room of St Mary’s Church on Abercromby Street in the Calton between 12pm and 2pm this Saturday (March 23rd) to gather evidence from last Saturday’s events. Hopefully this report that I’ve sent them will help in those matters, but the more witnesses they can talk to the better.

Apologies if this is much longer than usual, but I wanted to be thorough. Obviously this is a report on what I saw on the day, so if it’s not 100% accurate then I may not have seen or heard something that other may have. That’s why it’s important that as many people as possible tell their story.

Back to the football next week. Hopefully.

Saturday, March 16th, 2013 started like any other for me. Celtic were playing Aberdeen at home at 3pm and I took advantage of not having to get up early for work. I still got up early enough to get breakfast and do a couple of bits and pieces on the computer.

Then I read about “the corteo” again.

I’d read about it a few times already in the days previous, but now that it was the day of the event I had a long think about whether or not I wanted to be part of it. I usually try and get to the games early anyway, and on this particular day my wife was working so I would be going to the match on my own. I had nothing better to do either so I figured “why not?”

Let me make this crystal clear. I’m not exactly a political activist. I have my own opinions about politics and I make them pretty clear through social media like Facebook and Twitter, but I rarely get involved in marches and demonstrations. I’m also not a member of the Green Brigade. I have other match day rituals that don’t really fit with singing and banner waving for ninety minutes every game. That’s not to say I don’t join in with some of it through the course of a game, but the “ultras” of the Celtic support are probably something I would have been part of in my younger days rather than now. That’s a personal opinion and I know that the Green Brigade comprises of people both younger and older than I am.

I do, however, appreciate everything they do to bring atmosphere to the games and while I may not agree with absolutely everything they do I find them to be as asset to the club. I know I’m not alone in that either. Celtic manager Neil Lennon has backed them in the past as well, never more so than when he planted the SPL trophy in front of their section at the end of the 2011/12 season as a thank you for their support.

So as someone who isn’t part of the Green Brigade, but still someone who attends home and away matches, I have a reasonably good perspective of what goes on. At home matches my regular seat is just a few sections along from 111 where the Green Brigade congregate and that allows me to see the significant increase in stewarding and policing that they suffer. At away matches the Celtic support is less structured and so all of the travelling supporters are subjected to the same treatment as the Green Brigade receive at home games.

When I arrive at home games I’m usually asked by a police officer if I have any cans or bottles on my person. I say no, they accept my word on that and I walk through the turnstile. I sit and watch the game with little or no interest from the stewards and indeed I barely notice that they are there apart from the one occasional brightly coloured jacket walking up and down the stairs in my peripheral vision. It’s my belief that this is how spectators of any sport should be treated. The police and stewards are there should be needed, but it is a hands off approach for the most part.

At away games it is very different. I’m almost always patted down by a steward or police officer prior to going through the turnstile. In these cases my word apparently isn’t enough. Once inside, the number of stewards and police officers watching the away support is always significantly higher than in the stands given to the home support. Amongst that high police presence there is invariably one office who can be found pointing a video camera at the away support.

I often look around the stadium to see how this compares. At home games I know the stewarding is sufficient for my area and there are never any problems. One look over at the Green Brigade however and it’s easy to spot the significantly higher number of brightly coloured jackets surrounding section 111. I can also sit and watch a group of police aiming a video camera at the group. It is obvious that the Green Brigade get the same treatment at home games as all Celtic supporters do at away games.

At away games I look at the home support and note that, for all the section of supporters I find myself in tend to be surrounded by stewards and police, the home support are generally left alone and the policing and stewarding is pretty low by comparison. It’s not like the home support are always well behaved. Indeed, on a recent trip to Perth I watched a young St Johnstone supporter giving nazi salutes to the travelling support just before half time in the match. He was eventually dealt with by the police, but it took them to move from the travelling support to the home support to do it. The question there would have to be why are the police treating some fans differently from others?

Supporters have not always been treated this way. I’ve been attending away matches for almost ten years now and this increase in lopsided policing and stewarding has only started recently, coinciding with the introduction of the Offensive Behaviour Bill. Somehow that seems to have sparked things into action, but only in certain directions.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Celtic support, and more than likely the Green Brigade specifically, are being harassed since the introduction of this ill-advised and ill-conceived bill. It may not be exclusive to the Celtic support, but given the size of that support it is of no surprise that it is possibly the most affected. While I’m all in favour of proper and fair policing of football, I’ve yet to see this since the introduction of the bill. Indeed, it appears to have grown steadily worse.

Although they are clearly the loudest group amongst the Celtic support, I have yet to see the Green Brigade do anything that actually warrants the action against them. The songs they sing are, by in large, football related. Indeed, they have introduced songs to football that have been picked up by those in charge of the music at Celtic as well as countless other groups of supporters in England. It is true that they have political leanings which they also make clear, but those are neither sectarian not offensive in nature. Promoting republicanism is a long way from supporting terrorism, as they are so often accused of doing, and in my view they never cross that line.

With all of that in mind, I fully supported the drive to raise awareness of the harassment that the introduction of this bill has caused. This harassment has been well documented by the Green Brigade themselves and I will not repeat what they have been saying here as I have no personally experienced it. However, what I have witnessed as well as the information that so many of those Green Brigade members charged under the bill later have their charges thrown out of court and their ability to go to football reinstated backs up the harassment assertion. I therefore decided to attend “the corteo” in full support.

As I always drive to football matches, I left early that Saturday morning and parked up at Celtic Park as I usually do. I then walked from Celtic Park, along the Gallowgate and up to the currently closed car park at Molendinar Street. Arriving there at 12.20pm I noted that there was already a police riot van parked on the Gallowgate next to that car park. Figuring that they were there in readiness of the “corteo” I continued walking up to Glasgow Cross to kill a bit of time prior to others meeting at the car park on Watson Street at 12.30pm.

I walked up High Street and then turned onto Bell Street before walking under the railway bridge and turning onto Molendinar Street and then onto Spoutmouth where I sat on the wall opposite the closed car park for a few minutes. The police riot van which was still parked there eventually drove away, turned into Spoutmouth and directly past me before turning left down Bell Street and out of my sight. As it was now past 12:30pm I headed onto the Gallowgate again and walked towards Glasgow Cross to where a few Celtic supporters had started to gather outside the Chrystal Bell pub at Watson Street.

As I didn’t know anyone else there, I stood up towards Glasgow Cross out of the way a bit. Knowing that Jas from The Celtic Network, a friend I have met at other functions, was also coming along I was keeping an eye out for him. As such I spent the next quarter of an hour watching as the group of Celtic supporters continued to grow. I also noticed an unmarked white car parked on double yellow lines on the Gallowgate opposite my position which had two police officers sitting in it.

As the group continued to grow and then began to assemble on the other side of Watson Street from the Chrystal Bell pub I moved down to stand outside the pub on Watson Street itself. In doing so I passed a few Celtic supporters handing out “The Banned Bhoys” t-shirts which was part of another effort to raise awareness. At this point I took my first photo of the day, clearly showing the group forming at the car park and with at least two police vans parked on the Gallowgate in preparation, as well as several police officers ready to escort the “corteo”. This photo is timestamped at 12.56pm.


Just after taking this photo, the group moved on down Watson Street. This action appeared to cause some panic in the ranks of the police officers who were already in attendance who appeared to expect them to move off down Gallowgate instead. As the group moved down Watson Street towards Bell Street, I distinctly heard one police officer claim “they’ve changed the route”, and watched as several other officers ran down Watson Street and turned right into Bell Street in an effort to get in front of the group.

As the group moved around the corner, I followed while purposely keeping my distance. Turning onto Bell Street I caught up with the group and while they walked down the road I walked along the path and started recording audio of the event. As the group approached the railway bridge they were met with a line of police officers intent on allowing them to go no further. The group stopped for a bit before continuing to move forward as the police line moved back. There appeared to be no real intention by the police to stop the group at this point, and merely to ensure they were slowed down and sent back towards Gallowgate. As the group moved under the bridge, I was able to take a second photo.


As can be seen, the police vans have been parked to force the group back towards Gallowgate along Molendinar Street and onto Spoutmouth. This was the path the group took and began to head in that direction. However, they continued to be slowed by police blocking their path in front of them without actually stopping them.

As I moved under the bridge myself, another group of police vans appeared from behind me on Bell Street. Some of them unloaded a large group of police officers who then ran under the bridge and towards the group, while a few hung back in the vans behind the group. I could also see that the junction of Spoutmouth and Gallowgate was blocked off by several police vans. At this point it was becoming clear that the group were about to be blocked in from all sides.

In an effort to get a better view of what was about to unfold, as well as to ensure I didn’t get caught up in the blockade with the rest of the group, I walked up onto the embankment. As I did so, the group stopped on Spoutmouth as the police finally halted their progress. Over the next few minutes more and more police began to arrive and form a ring around the group. This ring can be seen forming over the next three photos.




As the ring became more dense, it became clear that the group were being “kettled” as it not only increased in number, but decreased in circumference. At this point between the second and third photos above some of the group, obviously sensing they were being trapped in, began to try and push their way free.

It was obvious there was no malice from the group at this point, they merely wished not to be caught in the trap that the police officers had now laid. As some of the group started to break free and run over the embankment on my left towards the Gallowgate they were chased by police officers who were now wielding batons. While many of the main group remained in place and became trapped in the ring of police officers, those that attempted to flee were chased.

At this point, those fleeing chose to took one of two courses of action. Some disappeared out of my view up Gallowgate in an attempt to get clear of the action and away from the batons. Others elected to stay back on the embankment and document the action through smartphone videos and photos. The unlucky ones who didn’t manage to flee to either Gallowgate or the embankment were muscled to the ground and handcuffed, often taking several police officers to do so.

Those who were attempting to document the action from the same embankment that I was on were quickly followed by police shouting at them to rejoin the main group while still wielding batons. Many chose to ignore this command and backed off, including myself who had never been part of the group as I tried to avoid getting caught up as one of those fleeing. This involved me having to take up a new position, further back from the main group and obscured by the trees as can be seen in this next photo.


However, those attempting to flee were met with more resistance and found many of their exit routes blocked off. One such route can be seen in this next photo.


As things began to settle down, the main group were of no trouble. They stood, surrounded by the ring of police officers and waited to see what would happen next. As those fleeing were able to eventually find ways to get clear, or at least stop being hassled by police trying to add them to the main group, the embankment settled down enough to allow me to move position closer once more. These next two photos show things starting to calm down away from the main group, and my new position.



From this new perspective I was able to listen in to the police announcement over megaphone informing the main group that their procession was being halted due to the perceived public disorder and that they would be allowed to leave in groups of no more than one or two. Following this announcement those police officers not involved in the ring around the main group began to once again chase away the onlookers, this time including myself. I again had to change position, shown in this next photo.

Corteo-10This new position did not last long as finally, one police officer moved to my position to inform us that there was “nothing to see”. This can be seen in the final photo.

Corteo-11At this point, I turned and walked up the Gallowgate and walked back to Celtic Park to attend the match against Aberdeen.

Having witnessed all of this first hand, I can only come to the following conclusions.

  • While it is true that the group of protesters was sufficiently large that they could have been a disruption to traffic on the Gallowgate as the travelled to the stadium, this is not an unusual occurrence on match days. Indeed, later that day many of the supporters at the match against Aberdeen would have walked back along the Gallowgate. While I cannot attest that this did indeed occur on the day in question, I have myself walked that very route following matches at Celtic Park on previous occasions as part of a group far larger than was evident on this day.

  • The police were fully aware of where and when the protest was to take place, and were prepared for it prior to my arrival 40 minutes before the protest was due to take place. Police statements since the event have indicated they were not called until 1pm which can only refer to the massive number of additional resources and not their initial awareness of the event.

  • There was no malice from the protest prior to the first blocking encounter with the police at the railway bridge on Bell Street. Indeed, it seemed as if the police were going to assist in ensuring that everyone made it safely to Celtic Park.

  • There was no clear indication as to why the blockade at the railway bridge on Bell Street took place, although subsequent actions would indicate this action was to position them on Spoutmouth as well as to slow the protesters down long enough for police backup to arrive.

  • While protesters did indeed start to push against police in Spoutmouth, this was nothing more than to continue in the direction that was originally intended for the protest to go, and indeed the direction it appeared the police had been encouraging protesters to go. By this point in events there is no doubt that members of the group were beginning to feel trapped.

  • As the police presence continued to increase in number and began to close in on the main group, some realised what was occurring and attempted to flee the scene completely. They did not attack the police, but merely reacted to normal instinct to flee when about to be trapped and tried to push their way free.

  • This “kettling” action by the police was clearly designed to not only prevent the protest from going any further, despite original indications that the police were happy for it to take place, but also to provoke a reaction from those that were part of the protest. At no point was any announcement ever made to the group indicating that they would be stopped or why.

  • The first sign of any “attack” from either side came not from the protesters, but the police raising their batons to try and prevent those attempting to flee from doing so. Questions must be asked as to why the police were intent on stopping the protest from breaking up in such a manner when that would have been a quick catalyst to the protest ending. Questions must also be asked as to why the police thought raising their batons was an appropriate response to people trying to do nothing but flee.

  • The vast majority of the protesting group were well behaved. While I cannot possibly account for the actions of every protester, it was clear that a large proportion of them waited patiently within the “kettle” while those that chose to break free either attempted to flee the scene or stop and document the action. None of these actions can be deemed aggressive, offensive or dangerous.

As nothing I witnessed were actions against me I cannot make any official complaint on behalf of myself. However, I have been deeply troubled by what I witnessed happening to others and had I not been hanging back documenting this event then I could very well have become caught up in the events myself. I have therefore taken the time to properly write up everything I witnessed and I would hope that this document can help with any relevant meetings, actions or inquiries that follow.

In addition to this document, please have a listen to the first 15 minutes of Paradise Report #33 which includes the audio I recorded at the event itself.

KK (Paradise Report on Hail Hail Media)


They Aren’t My Amigos

No to Newco. Boot them out of the SFA and the SPL.

Can I go a bit off topic now?

When I hear Celtic fans or radio broadcasters talking about ‘the 3 amigos’ (for you youngsters this means Paolo Di Canio, Pierre Van Hooijdonk and Jorge Cadete) I cringe a little every time.

It amazes me how people look back on them so fondly.

It’s not that I don’t remember the goals or the great play or even the great songs. However, I am also unable to disassociate that from who these people are.

I’ll start briefly with the two money-grabbers before I get to the fascist.

Jorge Cadete was a talented striker no doubt about it. So talented in fact that the SFA in the Jim Farry days delayed his registration to stop him playing for us in an important game.

In his only full season he scored 33 goals in 44 games and was one of the best penalty box strikers we have had in modern times.

Nevertheless, when the whiff of the euro reached him from Spain (Celta Vigo), Cadete did not show up for pre-season training the next season and began to mess the club around:  he was subsequently transferred.

It didn’t finish there either. A few years later and well past his prime, obviously needing more euros and after a spell on Big Brother, he returned to Scotland and tried to reingratiate himself to the Celtic support by going on TV and speaking about why he should never have left Celtic and wanted to come back. Then manager Martin O’Neill didn’t bite so Cadete agreed to sign for Raith Rovers before proceeding to do a Judas (he was photographed in the shirt and everything) and go to Partick Thistle. I am not sure this is the stuff of Celtic heroes.

Pierre van Hooijdonk was another excellent striker. 57 goals in 68 matches is an exceptional record by any standard.

However, his attitude didn’t endear to many at Celtic. It has been alleged that he refused to commit to doing any of the club’s charity work. When the time came for contract negotiations and he said on the radio that £7,000 may be good for a homeless person, but £7,000 a week is not good enough for a top class forward” I think that should have excluded him from Celtic great status. After the arguments over the contract he was transferred down south.

He went on to fanny about Nottingam Forest for a while before being scammed for a couple of million euros by a non-existent Chinese textile company.

And now to the meat and bones of it.

Paolo di Canio is a self-confessed fascist  and was also as much of a money-grabber as the other two, though I think the second fact is nothing compared to the first one.

Let’s hear it from the man himself. After making a fascist salute (which he did more than once) to the Lazio supporters he had this to say…

“I am a fascist, not a racist.”

“I give the straight arm salute because it is a salute from a ‘camerata’ to ‘camerati’,” (this is the Italian for members of Mussolini’s fascist movement).

“The salute is aimed at my people. With the straight arm I don’t want to incite violence and certainly not racial hatred,”

Oh well, that’s alright then. He has “Dux” which is Latin for “Duce” as a tattoo and he also described Mussolini as…

basically a very principled, ethical individual” who was “deeply misunderstood”.

He now seems to go on about Samurai culture. The Samurai, if you remember, were another group like the fascists who thought very little about lopping off the head (literally or figuratively – however you like) of one of the little people who they didn’t like the look of.

I don’t know what supporting Celtic means to you, but to me it does not mean cheering on fascists, or remembering their good goals and trying to shove everything else about them down the memory hole.

Even this week he is involved in controversy with the “not a racist” part of his statement coming into some doubt.

The first of the two Amigos are money-grabbers like so many players in the modern game. They are not worse than many others who have played for us since then but I don’t think they should be held in as high-esteem as they are. For me Di Canio is a very dark moment in our history and I am certainly far from proud that he played for us.

They aren’t my amigos.

Playing For The Lost Bhoys 3

Some of my ramblings have been included in a new book chronicling the football season just finished from a very Celtic perspective.

Half of the proceeds from the Book will go to the Kano foundation.

The book is available in both print and eBook formats and the foreword is written by 3 time world snooker champion John Higgins.

As they say on the lostbhoys site themselves

This year 50% of the profits will be going to the fantastic Kano Foundation who do wonderful work in taking large groups of kids to Celtic Park to sample the match-day experience. Book 3 follows on from our last two books that benefitted the Good Child Foundation (Thai Tims) and the Celtic Graves Society. I’m often asked what about the other 50%? Well we cover any small hosting costs etc then last year we gave the rest of ‘our half’ of the profits to Football Aid. Nobody at LostBhoys takes a penny out of these publications personally.

Other books with my stuff here.